¦ ________\__________| ._____ ________ _ _ \ ._ \ ._ /|____| / \ / // / ./ |/ / |/ _/_| \. \/ \. |________/_______\__| \_/____|_________| _|____| | ____(_| ________ ______| _______ ______ _____ ______. _ _ ___\_ | \ / ____\ |___\_ /_____.\ /__\_ \\ | \ \\ \ \ | \/ \.\ / | _/ /. |/ \ _/ | | /________|_________|__________| \_____|___|\______/__\_____|_____| | |____| ¦ | : : . ?------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - !====:] #45 [:=========================================:] 26 jun 1999 [:======= :---------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - editorial demonews party on! weekly interview - demo - kristina with k intro - music - quote - question - commercial break homepages articles end subscribers 243 - ?------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - !====:] editorial [:=========================================================== :---------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - Hello all! It's 5:30am and i wasn't sleepy so i decided to make the next demojournal since i had everything already lined down and ready to be putten together. So here it is. Feel free to print it and spread it all around your walls for darts practise ;) Btw, im planning to go to europe (central europe that is...) this summer so if you live somewhere around and/or between hungary and france and feel like getting me a place to sleep and eat for a day or so please feel free to get in touch! ;) i'm leaving (probably on inter-rail train) 1st august and i'm gonna be at antiq and ltp if nothing bad happens to me (like starve to death or get mugged by neo-nazi movement gangsters or beeing kidnapped by old ladies...) so be there and come say hi! :) it's no good telling someone you saw him at the party place when that one is back in the home-country. believe me, it isn't... :P ps ?------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - !====:] demonews [:============================================================ :---------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - www.tpolm.com has been updated. [ed: koko & the koks rules!!!] Yannis is the artist of the month on traxinspace ps [ed: me] released all his code [ed: well 95%] all explained and ready to run/compile... it's 3 years of cafeine addiction and struggling against an unknown and overdue coding language called pascal. a total of 3 demos, 4 intros, one greetro and several other small projects (unfinished games, effects research...) 5megs available at ftp://ftp.scene.org/incoming/others/codeinfo.zip or ftp://demo.cat.hu/incoming/demosource/codeinfo.zip ?------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - !====:] party on! [:=========================================================== :---------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - starts !=! ends !===! location !===! name !=========! contact !================ Apr 16 - Apr 18, 1999 France Arf!Party http://arfparty.citeweb.net May 07 - May 09, 1999 France Keyboard '99 May 13 - May 17, 1999 Sweden Icing'99 http://www.icing.net May 21 - May 23, 1999 Sweden Pool Position '99 www.pool-position.pp.se May 29 - May 30, 1999 Poland Rush Hours'99 amber.bti.pl/rh99 May 29 - ??? ??, 1999 France Servo '99 info@mars-eyes.org Jun 04 - Jun 06, 1999 Holland Takeover '99 http://www.takeover.nl Jun 05 - Jun 06, 1999 Canada Coma '99 http://www.microtec.net/~unkelben/coma.html Jun 11 - Jun 13, 1999 Sweden Remedy '99 http://www.remedy.nu Jun 24 - Jun 27, 1999 France JEM '99 http://jem.rtel.fr/ Jun 25 - Jun 27, 1999 Germany Underg. Conf. 3d http://uc3d.bingen.net =========! present time !====================================================== Jul 02 - Jul 04, 1999 Hungary Jumper 2000-1 http://jumper.scene-hu.com Jul 02 - Jul 04, 1999 France VIP '99 http://popsyteam.rtel.fr/VIP/ Jul 03 - Jul 04, 1999 Russia Chaos Const. 999 http://cc999.da.ru Jul 09 - Jul 11, 1999 Belgium Inscene '99 http://www.analogica.com/inscene Jul 09 - Jul 10, 1999 UK Dejavu '99 http://www.dejavu.org.uk Jul 09 - Jul 11, 1999 Swiss Buenzli#8 http://swiss.scene.org/buenzli Jul 16 - Jul 18, 1999 Finland Plutonium 2 http://www.sci.fi/~flo/plutonium/ Jul 21 - Jul 24, 1999 Denmark Summer Enc. '99 http://summer.encounter.dk Jul 22 - Jul 24, 1999 Spain Euskal 7 http://www.euskalparty.org Aug 06 - Aug 08, 1999 Finland Assembly '99 http://www.assembly.org Aug 08 1999 Romania Reunion '99 Aug 20 - Aug 22, 1999 Hungary AntIQ'99 http://antiq.scene-hu.com Aug 20 - Aug 22, 1999 Germany Evoke '99 http://kaoz.org/evoke/99/ Aug 21 - Aug 22, 1999 Czech Rep Fiasko '99 http://vyhen.site.cz/fiasko99/ Aug 21 - Aug 24, 1999 France Slach 2 http://www.mygale.org/~myke666 Aug 27 - Aug 29, 1999 France LTP 3 http://ltp.planet-d.net Aug 27 - Aug 29, 1999 Poland Gravity#4 http://www.anadune.optimus.wroc.pl/gravity Sep 03 - Sep 05, 1999 France RTS Party 2000-1 http://RTS-PartY.imag.fr Sep 05 - Sep 07, 1999 Sweden The Demoparty '99 http://www.demoparty.com Sep 16 - Sep 18, 1999 Hungary Rage-Scenest '99 http://scenest.scene-hu.com Sep 30 - Oct 03, 1999 Norway distance '99 http://www.neutralzone.org/distance/ Sep ?? - Sep ??, 1999 France Central party '99 http://www.chez.com/centralparty/ Oct 01 - Oct 03, 1999 Germany Dialogos '99 http://www.dialogos.cc Nov 04 - Nov 07, 1999 Sweden Dreamhack '99 http://www.dreamhack.org Nov 05 - Nov 07, 1999 Hungary Conference 3000 Nov ?? - Nov ??, 1999 Germany Cologne Conf. '99 http://www.academicus.de/cc98 ??? ?? - ??? ??, 1999 YugoslaviaScene Strike 4 ??? ?? - ??? ??, 2000 Germany Radwar Party 2000 http://www.radwar.com ??? ?? - ??? ??, 2000 USA Bang! 2000 www.scene.org/bang!/ ?------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - !====:] weekly [:============================================================== :---------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - This week! I have been mostly eating... alcohol =====! interview !============================================================= Session Start: Mon Jun 21 22:01:58 1999 *** velvet has joined #demojournal hi :) <|ps|> hello there! so who are you? :) okay, i am velvet of amable and tdr, my real name is kristian perusic and i am a 21 year old sounder. <|ps|> what do you do on real life and on the scene? at the moment i am studying politics in marburg/germany and yes, scene, i am doing some musics! <|ps|> when did you started tracking? uhm, i started tracking some years ago. i think i had my first attempts to make music back in 94 om my good old amiga :) <|ps|> how did you started tracking? just bumped into a tracker? :) it was my friend a-move who someday showed me his new progy called protracker with some bad st-samples. i copied it and liked it :). <|ps|> oh yes.. a-move. you do alot of coops with him.. you friends for a long time now? yes indeed, he is my best friend and we used to hang around and do some music for some years. unfortunatly do we live quite far from each other nowadays. <|ps|> thats sad... but you keep working together i see :) what have you been doing lately then? yes, as far as it is possible and as often as we meet we try to track something together. at the moment we are preparing for evoke99 in august. cool party, so we we gotta have some songs finished. ;) maybe we will even have the possibility to do some intro/demo sounds...it was real fun to do that for our last demo. (adding to last answer:)) <|ps|> tell us more about evoke. when.. where.. evoke is a smaller german party near aachen. i used to go there the last 2 years and was always real fun. i always met a lot of friends there and as it is a smaller parts it is even more comfortable i think :) <|ps|> so whats your favorite icecream flavour? icecream... hmm, vanilla of course. reminds me of summer :) <|ps|> whats the relation between movement of the lakes in scotland and flapping of butterflies in china? i have no idea!? <|ps|> more important even, whats the capital of madagascar? are you really thinking about madagascar at the moment? :) <|ps|> OFCOURSE!!!!! well... do you know what the capital of madagascar is or not? if you give me some time i will look it up. :) i am sure my dad knows.. but i used to be quite bad in geography! :) ... <|ps|> imagine if you are invaded by a bunch of yellow and brownish aliens who gives you 3 seconds for you to prove you know your planet well. and they ask you whats the capital of madagascar! would you ask them for 3 more seconds? would you have time with 6 seconds to go look it up? it is important to know what the capital of madagascar is! anyways, whats your favorite demo and why? :P hm, i watched "noexit" by nomad lately. this one really kicks. they have very inovative ideas. it seems as in that demo everything (gfx, code, music) fits perfectly... must have been a lot of work. <|ps|> what are your favorite coders, gfx, musicians? my favorite gfx-artist is made of course. and about musics...i really love the works of my mate falcon. i especially adore his triphop songs. <|ps|> what about coders? about coders... i always used to like unreal's works. i hope he will release some new demos in the near future. :) <|ps|> in what groups are you in? i am member of the german democrew amable and of tokyo dawn records. additionally, a-move poti, xenon and me we founded theKool some time ago. as the name says, a cool crew who's main activity is to have fun and drink a little :)) <|ps|> tell us more about amable and tdr mh, amable is quite inactive the last weeks. i hope we will get to do some new intros/demos soon again. and i hope i will meet my amable raul and climax soon again for we can do something together. greets. and of course greets to roger :) about tdr, well it's just going on and on, with some good musics i think. :) look out for "repertoire2" a new musicdisc coming up very soon. each sounder of tdr will have a track on it. :) <|ps|> how is germany as a place to live? i don't know if its the best place to be, but i do like it here , especially as we do have bundesliga and the best beer. :) <|ps|> why so you say beer in germany is best? what makes it special? i love "hefe weizen". we use to drink it quite often with my friends. good bavarian beer :) <|ps|> back to scene, what tracker do you use nowdays? IT or FT? i use fasttracker. as i was used to protracker it was the easiest for me. i don't like that IT. it doesn't even work properly on my machine :) so i have no choice :) <|ps|> uhuh.. :P <|ps|> what kind of music do you listen to? i love a lot of music styles. i listen to a lot of trip hop and ambient, but i also like classic music and ofcourse pop. :)) yesterday there was a special on germany tv about 25 years abba. abba is very cool :) cool pop :) <|ps|> do you listen to tracked music or not really? yes of course, i listen a lot to music by my favourite artists. though i am afraid i don't have too many cool songs. <|ps|> why not? i am too lazy to download... :) i know i should a little more :) my friends usually provide me with new releases :( <|ps|> :P <|ps|> what was the best demoparty you ever been to? and why probably the best demoparty i have ever been to was ms98. we had a good time then. the good thing was that all amable members have been there so it got really funny :) even the compos were quite good. anyhow, i think that meeting friends and having a good time with them is the most iportant thing on parties! <|ps|> what is the worst memory you have of it? of ms98 or parties in general? <|ps|> both okay :) the worst thing on ms98 was that we (amable) still had to finish an intro. so it was a bit stressy. but i don't really mind. :) the worst thing i ever experienced at a demoparty was probably raul having lost his car-keys at wired 95. :) <|ps|> ouch! did he found it? yes luckily. :) after one whole day of stress and plans how to get the replacement key we finally found it somewhere under his table :) <|ps|> pff :) it would have been a real problem as he was our driver:) <|ps|> what was your first demoparty ever? exactly that wired 95 was my first demoparty...anyway i think it was a good one. i was very nervous, especially about presenting a tune for the first time :) <|ps|> what place did you get with that tune? oh, 2nd in the 4channel compo :) <|ps|> how was it to hear it on the big speakers? :) eh, don't ask me...i was so nervous. i couldn't really concentrate. but i guess it was okay. :) at least it was played and even some people applauded :) cool feeling that was :) <|ps|> well.. i seem to be out of questions. you have an homepage and email? :) yep..for homepage surf to www.scene.de/amable or www.scene.de/thekool and my email addy is Perusic@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de quite long one. :) <|ps|> :) wanna say hi to anyone before i kill the air-time? :) of course. <|ps|> dump!! :) hellos to all my groupmates and to netpoet, manka & swan :) <|ps|> ok, thank you for your time! :) hehe, no problem :) Session Close: Mon Jun 21 23:29:40 1999 =====! demo !================================================================== No Exit by Nomad (final version?) Found at www.scene.org 1st place at Takeover'99 (On csipd, they announced new versions of several demos could be found on www.nomad-medialab.com, but that version of No Exit is exactly the same as the one at scene.org). System requirements: Windows9x. (Yes, "This program cannot be run in DOS-mode!") Theoretical, this means that it should run on almost everything, but I suggest you set you desktop to some hi-color mode. 3.6 MB HD, and I suppose a PII to see it at a reasonable speed. The demo: Another windows-only demo, I guess we will see more and more demos like this... It's a very Shad-like demo: dark feelings, pictures of strange wounded faces, 3D-worlds with a strange mixture of hi-tech (robots, flying machines,...) and ancient things (big primitive mechanisms of wood and stone), unreadable blurred text superimposed over all scenes... Maybe it has to do something with the fact that Nytrik & Krafton, the two 2D & 3D graphicians also contributed in making Shad :). Anyway, their graphics are very impressive, from the beautiful setup window till the final end-pic that really sends shivers down my spine. The 3D is well-done, but sometimes a bit too tangled, you can't see what's going on, especially when there is much text superimposed over it. For example, in the "automatic surgery"-part, it took me some time to see that the object being transported was a body. There are also some new 2D-effects, like a special kind of zoom without big ugly pixels, and a transition where the inside of a picture zooms out, while the edges stay at the same place. Really weird. Unlike Shad, that had no story at all, there are some scenes that are clearly interconnected, but I'm not 100% sure about what happened. More like 60% or so, a bit like Tribes. I really like demos that make you wonder about their meaning. The music: It starts a bit strange, with a soft noise and something rattling, then it becomes more melodic, almost ambient during the intro-3D-part. Drums kick in and add more tension, and when the main part start, it becomes a metal/rock-tune, with heavy crashes, discord sounds, but sometimes a more relaxed part. It follows the mood of the scenario, and there are also sounds like breathing, heartbeats, the beeps of medical equipment,... synchronized to the 3D-scenes (or vice versa). It tends to be a bit boring sometimes, but maybe that's because I watched it too much :) Worth the download? Well, it's really different from Moai and Past, don't expect any similarities. I haven't seen Shad II, but I heard it's quite the same style. Unless you know you don't like dark demos, you should try it. The graphics are excellent, the effects are great, and the scenario makes this a special one. One bad point: modeling realistic moving living beings is very difficult, I know, but the jerky motions of the angel at the end really distracts your attention from the story. After watching it a few times however, I got kind of used to it :). So well done, Nomad, we hope to see more from you guys. Seven [editor: i no longer recall well shad2 myself since i only seen it once at the party place but i think no exit and shad2 are NOT close to each other at all. same style of gfx and models yes but totally diferent way of putting them together. ecstasy can put down nice design on 3d. also, seven didnt mention about the music by djamm, totally awesome. you dont really notice it because it all fits so well.. just awesome] =====! intro !================================================================= U-Turn - Ranked 1st at Remedy '99, avaiable in every good stores, like scene.org If i remember right this is the first (or 2nd? can't remember correctly) intro of Whizzter, and he developes a nice P-Mode replacement too, check out his homepage, is in the infofile. The intro handles lot of video modes, i tried one time 640x480, wasn't full screen, but was fast. The vector engine is a bit buggy, i think problems with z-clipping. The effects are good mixed, the coder really wanted to do something called design, maybe next time he should ask someone to do, a minimal picture, logo, a bit fashion (halftone, scrollies) or something like that. Next time it will be much better, i hope this first place made Whizzter happy, and will create more stuffz in the future. dlee [editor: there is a final version out. ill try to find out if its uploaded somewhere for next demojournal. loonie and whizzter say its alot better then the party version so you might want to consider it...] =====! music !================================================================= The singing piano Tren / 7Gods from www.demobit.sk winner of demobit98 Interesting piece of music coming from Slovakian scene. In the first seconds it starts as a very good piano tune, but then comes a change in the style, lot of influences hearable and I don't know what to compare it with. The piano is still present and in combination with emphatic percussion. It sounds interesting. Bad side of this tune is that it's only 2:30 long, but on the other side it's better than repeating same patterns again and again. I've also checked winners of demo and 64k intro competitions, but they aren't worth downloading. MR ickytape Hunz / FM from www.scene.org Next of his more or less experimental songs. This one is only 2 minutes and 20 seconds long, no vocals used, mostly synth sounds. First part sounds quite simple, the second part is more complex and it's style is a mix of hunz and distance. I quite like it, however nothing happens if you miss this one. Sounds ugly in OpenCP. Be sure to check his updated homepage at www.globec.com.au/~hunz, it looks really good now and there's a lot of new information on it. btw: I've noticed that in fc_trib2 disk is in text file listed 8 songs, but actually there are only 7 ! Where is the one by Elemental? tryhuk =====! quote !================================================================= "Oh wait.. I do have earthshocking news! I made the deadline to deliver this to PS for inclusion in the next DemoJournal." redhound [editor: let me know when is your bday. ill give you a watch so this repeats itself more often jeffry! ;)] =====! question !============================================================== > <|ps|> i need a question of the week > ps : ehm.. "why do I suck?" .. something like that?? :) > can anyone answer? becoz u let US code the demo and think you can that easily reserve all the fucking banners for YOUR greetz!!! bam!eVolve [editor: shuu, dont tell anyone, i wanna be ranked high on coders chart when the demo is out instead of you guys... ;)] yep.. i never mention sentences which involves 'suck' just because it sounds ugly in catalan (sucks-> suc -> suc de taronja, suc de poma, ....) :) ya know, just kiddin' dave Nope, I don't think anyone can answer such a childish question seriously. Adok. The Prophet of Scene Journalism. why do You suck? i dunno... Marcin Antas (aka Garfield) [editor: i guess this means i dont suck... well... ill think of a better question for next week :P] ?------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - !====:] commercial break! [:=================================================== :---------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - =====! homepages !============================================================= Aisth.....................................http://www.aisth.com Amber diskmag.......................http://amber.bti.pl/di_mag Amnesia...............http://amnesia-dist.future.easyspace.com Arf!Studios..........................http://www.arfstudios.org Astral..............................http://astral.scene-hu.com Astroidea........................http://astroidea.scene-hu.com AtomiK..............................http://www.extra.hu/atomik Bomb...................................http://bomb.citeweb.net BlaBla...............................http://blabla.citeweb.net Blacktron Music Production...........http://www.d-zign.com/bmp Blasphemy..............................http://www.blasphemy.dk Byterapers.....................http://www.byterapers.scene.org Carlos..............................http://www.nexus.hu/carlos Calodox............................http://calodox.planet-d.net Chrome..............................http://chrome.scene-hu.com #coders..................................http://coderz.cjb.net Comic Pirates.........................http://scene-central.com Dave.............................http://www.come.to/davecorner DaVinci.................................http://davinci.ice.org Digital Undergrounds.....................http://dug.iscool.net Demo fanclub...........http://www.radix.net/~brett/jer/fanclub Demojournal....................http://demojournal.planet-d.net Dreams2 CD.........................http://nl.scene.org/dreams2 Echo................................http://www.kki.net.pl/echo Exceed...........................http://www.inf.bme.hu/~exceed Flan.............................http://www.error-404.com/flan Fleur diskmag........................http://fleur.scene-hu.com Freax...................http://freax.scene-hu.com/mainmenu.htm Gardner................................http://www.gardner.z.pl GfxZone.................................http://www.gfxzone.org GODS...................................http://www.idf.net/gods Grabule........................http://members.xoom.com/grabule Green.....................................http://green.dyns.cx Grif........................http://arrabonet.gyor.hu/~rattgrif Haujobb.....................................http://haujobb.org Hellcore............................http://www.hellcore.art.pl Heroin...................................http://www.heroin.net HP..................................http://www.klte.hu/~hamzap Hugi diskmag................http://home.pages.de/~hugidownload Hugi size-compo...............http://home.pages.de/~hugi-compo Immortals..............................http://imrt.home.ml.org Infuse...................................http://www.infuse.org Jimsendu............................http://home.sol.no/ojakobs Jupiter....................http://members.xoom.com/JupiterCode Koma...............................http://www.hut.fi/~vrantane Label zero.........................http://labelzero.pganet.com Leviathan....................http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~ajcarlso Los........................http://www.angelfire.com/in/miku305 Milk.......................................http://milk.sgic.fi MAZ's Sound homepage.............http://www.th-zwickau.de/~maz Mandula.........................http://www.inf.bme.hu/~mandula Melcom.....................http://www.center-nebula.com/melcom Melcom (mirror)......................http://www.melcom.cjb.net Mephisto.............................http://www.chez.com/shiva Mono211.................................http://www.mono211.com Nico....................................http://geecs.org/~nico Noise................................http://www.noisemusic.org Nogsf..............................http://www.saers.com/~nogsf Oranje Juice.........................http://ojuice.citeweb.net Pain............................http://www.space.ch/scene/pain PC-demos explained.....http://www.oldskool.org/demos/explained Pixel...................................http://pixel.scene.org Pixel (mirror)..........................http://fsk.home.ml.org Pow.................................http://home.sol.no/~tskara Quad........................................http://www.quad.nl Radical Rhythms.....http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/merrelli/rr Rage........................................http://www.rage.nu Replay.......................http://www.shine.scene.org/replay Rez.................................http://reeeeez.citeweb.net Rhyme................................http://rhyme.scene-hu.com Rod.................................http://www.inf.bme.hu/~rod Ruff Engine................http://members.xoom.com/ruff_engine Scenet.........................http://www.hackerland.de/scenet Scorpik............................http://scorpik.planet-d.net Shodan...............................http://shodan.skytech.org <*> Skal..................................http://skal.planet-d.net Skytech team............................http://www.skytech.org Spell.........................http://www.ThePentagon.com/Spell Splif..............................http://splif.aegis-corp.org Suspend......................http://www.optimus.wroc.pl/rappid TakeOver................................http://www.takeover.nl Tehdas...................................http://come.to/tehdas Tesko..........................http://www.scentral.demon.co.uk The Black Lotus.............................http://www.tbl.org The Digital Artists Wired Nation.http://digitalartists.cjb.net Theralite...........................http://theralite.avalon.hr TheREW..............................http://home.wxs.nl/~therew The Lost Souls...............................http://www.tls.no Textmode Demo Archive.................http://tmda.planet-d.net Tokyo Dawn Records........................http://tdr.scene.org Total Disaster...................http://www.totaldisaster.w.pl TPOLM.....................................http://www.tpolm.com Trajic (Hungarian scene)...............http://www.scene-hu.com Trauma.................................http://sauna.net/trauma Traven..............................http://traven.planet-d.net Trebel...................................http://www.trebel.org TS................................http://www2.hawaii.edu/~myee TUHB.......................................http://www.tuhb.org Tuo.....................................http://tuo.skytech.org U3da........................http://users.cybercity.dk/~bcc5877 UltraBeat.........................http://www.innerverse.com/ub Universe.......................http://www.ucl.ru/prog/universe Vivid.........................http://www.klangstabil.com/vivid Wain.............http://zevs.ifi.ntnu.no/~frankwer/gfx/gfx.htm Willbe...................................http://willbe.cjb.net Zen of Tracking.........................http://surf.to/the-imm - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Amber.......................................ftp://amber.bti.pl Cyberbox.....................................ftp://cyberbox.de DC-1.......................ftp://demo.cat.hu Pigforce...................ftp://pigforce.ml.org Scene.org................ftp://ftp.scene.org Skynet archive.................ftp://acid2.stack.nl/pub/skynet ACiD2 Archive.............................ftp://acid2.stack.nl ?------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - !====:] articles [:============================================================ :---------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - ?------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - !====:] end [:================================================================= :---------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - Download site#1....ftp://demo.cat.hu/scene/DiskMag/DemoJournal Download site#2.........ftp://ftp.foxfiber.net/pub/demojournal Download site#3.ftp://amber.bti.pl/pub/scene/mags/demo_journal Download site#4.......ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/mags/demojournal Homepage.......................http://demojournal.planet-d.net Webmaster......Receptor..................<_receptor@yahoo.com> Demo-reviewer..Seven....... 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